Apparently my last post about this same topic got around a bit on the net, and last week I received an e-mail (as well as a site comment) from one of the founders from Indeed telling me they’d fixed the problems I pointed-out in my previous post. Cool! The power of the internet never ceases to amaze me. They’ve also added advanced searching capabilities since I last did this update, so I was able to group more searches together instead of having to separate them out. I certainly don’t fault them for leaving this stuff out– it’s still beta after all, not to mention I understand the difficulty of search technology as I work with it on a daily basis myself.
Below is an update to my earlier post. If I decide to keep this up, I’m going to have to script this to automate it as it’s a PITA to do manually, not to mention it would be interesting to keep track of trends. Actually, I just noticed that they added webservices to the site to allow me to do this. Very cool! Perhaps I’ll get around to it sooner than later if enough people find it interesting enough to check-out.
Listed are the primary searches I used, with additional searches in parens which I added to the parent search for alternate terms used to describe the same thing:
Programming Languages & Platforms/Architectures:
- java (-barista -coffee) 53,618
- .net 47,651
- c++ 35,322
- perl 19,432
- visual basic (or vb -visual basic and -visualbasic) 18,508
- c# 14,319
- asp (asp -asp.net -.net) 12,100
- c programmer (and c developer -programmer) 11,711
- cobol 6,713
- flash 6,353
- asp.net (-asp) 5,644
- php 4,194
- coldfusion (and cold fusion -coldfusion) 3,360
- delphi 1,122
- actionscript 421
Operating Systems:
- windows (-glass -frame -sunroom -sunroof -tint -replacement -retrofit) 87,790
- unix 63,524
- linux 24,193
- solaris 19,263
- aix 9,291
- hpux (and hp-ux -hpux) 5,134
- irix 540
- freebsd 433
- sco 414
As for some additional notes and comments:
- I find the results for Java and Unix relatively interesting. I honestly view both of those technologies as higher enterprise based technologies than the Microsoft offerings which compete with them (based on personal experience, not blind bigotry). So in theory there are quite a number of Enterprise/Corporate IT type jobs available. Though the results of Windows vs. Unix show around a 24,000 job difference, I still find it surprising how competitive the Unix keyword is given Microsoft’s monopoly on the desktop. It seems like there are always a ton of openings for help desk people as well as contracts for windows installers for instance.
- It’s relatively hard to compare Java to C# as Java is a fairly generic keyword (I see so many postings that say “JAVA experience is a plus, which usually means they don’t currently use it nor understand Java isn’t an acronym), but for all of the buzz around C#, Java still seems to be heartily on top even if you account for the aforementioned type job listings There are also a fair number of jobs which have .net in them, but I think the above case also applies (i.e.– .net experience is a plus).
- There are more Linux jobs open now than Solaris jobs. I suppose there is a reason Sun is working hard to try and gain back customers that are bleeding off to Linux based solutions. Though it’s certainly cost-effective to take the Linux & Intel path, there will always be a market for “big iron” in one way or another think despite it’s shrinkage in the last few years. Granted, x86 platforms have continually made big strides in performance (though the last year has been a bit stagnant), but even as these systems get bigger, business demands also continually exceed what is possible on those platforms (without implementing some uber Beowulf cluster of x86 systems at least).
- Lastly, it should not be any surprise why IBM is bracing Linux so much. Using these numbers, it would appear that AIX is losing to it’s competitors including Sun.
3/6/2005 Update: Welcome Slashdot Visitors! It looks like after some tweaking my wimpy server has been able to keep up with a weekend /.ing! Anyhow, please keep in mind that I don’t view this informal querying of a job aggregator to be the end-all absolute truth, nor do I really view it as a scientifically sound study. Mostly I found it interesting that I was able to search a large percentage of the jobs available in the US and wanted to compare some various technology related keywords. Feel free to leave constructive criticisms in the comments so I can improve this comparison in the future.
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I did a much smaller scale version of this (here: http://oddhammer.com/blog/comm.....53_0_1_0_C ), but found recently that Monster cuts off the results at 1,000.. so what I was doing is not valid anymore.. but over the course of a year it did start to show some trends.
It seems like if you use indeed.com you’ll end up with duplicates? i.e. the same job showing up on multiple sites. So your data will be skewed some there.
I’m sure it’s not perfect, but Indeed does do a good job of grouping/collapsing similar job postings, so it’s probably not as big of a problem as you would think.
I also certainly wouldn’t give this little search much scientific validity; mostly its just interesting.
http://www.wikiafterdark.com
prepare to be slashdoted
I’ve actually submitted this to Slashdot before thinking they’d find it interesting, but I guess not. It would be ironic if it did happen– I have a new server coming in tomorrow, and this server will certainly not survive it (not to mention my bandwidth is limited).
Then again, I wonder if your comment isn’t spam just to link to your site?
Oh shit, nevermind.. it’s on Slashdot now. This is going to make it hard to do homework today…
Okay.. I just made some config changes to Apache and installed a cache plugin for WordPress.. lets see what happens!
good job standing up to the load, man! wordpress reigns!
About 6-8 years ago SUN announced internally that anyone caught porting Linux to a SUN box would be immediately fired. This pig-headedness on SUN’s part is now punishing the company ; revenge is sweet indead.
You need to filter out phrases like:
“Windows of opportunity”
and
“Launch windows” : the time slot available to launch a spaceship to Mars for example
not to mention “X Windows” the imformal phrase used to describe the Graphics sub-system on Unix/Linux
And I’m sure there are many other non-computer phrases using the word “Windows”
-Gavin
Love the Freudian slip…
“The power of the internet ceases to amaze me.”
Why are there seperate list items for .NET, C#, ASP.NET, and Visual Basic (VB.NET ?) ? These are all .NET technologies. You didnt decompose Java into Java Beans, JINI, J2EE etc.
Also, for operating systems, are list items 3 to 9 subcategories of list item 2 (Unix) and tallied twice? this would inflate the figures of non-MS operating system jobs.
Is this the result of ignorance , unconcious bias or a malicious skewing of results?
Leif,
Actually I think I forgot to put a “never” in there and just uhh, never realized it. Fixed!
You can’t really have “COBOL 6,713″ and no MVS/zOS? There is pretty much a one to one correspondence in COBOL and MVS.
Josh,
Settle down there trigger.
Actually it’s probably ignorance– I worked on a large ASP project once upon a time which utilized COM objects in C++ for the business logic. That was the first time I’d seen that since all of the ASP type stuff I’d worked on previous to that were all comprised of various ASP scripts.
I’d assume that this might still be true today– some places may only write their products in ASP.NET while others use a mixture of C# & ASP.NET, or maybe just C# alone? I honestly don’t know. I’ve always thought of .NET as a platform or framework with the various languages being pieces and parts which make up the platform. Without working with it hands-on that much, I’ve probably got the wrong view of that though, which I can certainly admit.
The percieved difference for me is that Java is Java– you know how to implement basics like controls structures in the language or you don’t. I think of Java as a language and not a platform. A fairer comparison might be J2EE Vs. Net.
The various items in the Operating Systems list are not the same thing. Unix != Linux, Solaris != Sco, etc.
Anyhow… I leave the comments open on this entry for suggestions on how to make these results more accurate because I know there is certainly room for improvement. I don’t really feel like it’s a strong scientific analysis to begin with, mostly something interesting to ponder.
Joe,
Good to know. I’m 26 so I’ve never worked with COBOL before. I’ll include that the next time (if and when) I do the search again.
Its actually interesting to see that Linux/Unix still rules. This shows how powerfull it is. However the number of users may increase for solaris if it had been more user friendly.
You made one error in evaluating the performance of Linux vs. Solaris. You assume that Linux only runs on x86. The fact is that Linux is available on just about everything, up to and including the “Big Iron” IBM mainframes, HP “SuperServers”, and Sun “E” series systems (although Sun doesn’t support the system when running Linux). I agree that there may be a need for “Big Iron” well into the future, I just disagree with the implication that Linux isn’t available on those platforms.
Joseph,
Yep, I suppose that’s true. To play devil’s advocate– I have to wonder how many applications such as Oracle offer full support for Linux running on a SPARC platform? Can you buy an E450 from Sun without Solaris being thrown into the price tag? Is there anyone in the industries that typically need these machines actually running Linux on them in production rather than their native OS?
I do vaguely remember reading something in the past about people running many instances of Linux on some big IBM boxes, but IIRC it seemed more like an “hey look, it’s possible!” than a “this is how ReallyBigCorp© is doing it” type article.
Anyhow, I’m certainly aware Linux runs on more than just x86 platforms– my first public webserver was a DEC Alpha running RedHat circa 1998 for my then domain of booms.nu. I just have never personally heard about any success with Linux on large Enterprise servers. However, I’d love to hear about that topic if anyone has links, etc…
I should also mention that the reason I pointed out the “big iron” argument is that the x86 platform doesn’t quite seem to be the answer for large enterprise customers yet in certain sectors, rather than a nice way to say “I think Linux sucks in the enterprise” which is how it could be interpreted.
I honestly have no idea how Linux is viewed at that sort of level, though I think it’s starting to spread into that space for sure.
Joe & Brandon,
COBOL runs in alot of places other than IBM mainframes and mainframe OS: Microfocus COBOL and Fujitsu COBOL run on most flavors of Unix and some Linux distros, not to mention Novell Netware. And even IBM makes COBOL for OS/400 and other of its architectures.
Ralph,
It’s also supported by .NET now as well. With that it would also run on x86. I honestly know very little about COBOL since I’ve never worked with it.
How about adding Macintosh to platform?
Macintosh in eterprise market? humm. i have never saw it.
Once i saw a PDP/11..
lol.
Breno Leitao
Don’t forget Python: 2,008 jobs.
In my opinion the search for .NET should have been done using “.NET or C# or VB.NET or ASP.NET” which yields 62,558. The reason is that since .NET is a technology that allows you to use multiple languages most job posting are confused between the four cases above.
Looks like the folks at .NET DJ don’t mind the way he did his .NET searching…
>It’s relatively hard to compare Java to C# as Java
>is a fairly generic keyword (I see so many postings
>that say “JAVA experience is a plus…
To get a better idea of the quantity of jobs where a language is the primary skill, rather than a “nice to have” secondary skill, try searching for the languages specifically in the job posting titles. For example, a search for “title:(java)” at indeed.com gets you about 11,000 hits, whereas Perl (my language of interest) gets about 1000 hits. (Showing about a 10 to 1 difference, rather an about a 3 to 1 difference shown in your stats.)
I ran a few stats using this technique:
java 11,064
.net 6,874
c++ 4,418
c# 2,458
visual basic 862 + vb 1,622 = 2408
perl 867
php 712
python 34
As someone else mentioned, Python didn’t seem to be in your list. This site, http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm , which conducts a similar language popularity survey using general web search engine queries, might provide you with some ideas and if nothing else, a list of languages.
-Tom
Tom,
Thanks for the input. While it is a valid point to try and search the title for those keywords, many corporate type jobs use what seems to be an industry standard and use job titles such as “Programmer III”, “Member of Technical Staff”, “Senior Member of Technical Staff”, etc. I think it would be a pretty big misrepresentation to only search the titles of the job entries for various given keywords.
Hi Brandon,
Nice work, first of all…
Regarding your comments #18/19, I found out a few years ago that Oracle in fact does its original development on Linux. It seems to me that Linux is also now IBM’s platform of choice for most of its lines, especially Xeon (x86 server) and PowerPC-based platforms, but also on its x90 machines. Linux has supported all of the architectures (including 64-bit variants) for a while now, and IBM seems to be contributing a lot to Linux. I don’t know what customers actually are buying, but Linux certainly seems to be what is being most heavily marketed.
I am old enough to have written COBOL - did it for 5 whole years, back in those days when IBM ruled the computer world and Microsoft was just a startup…
Although your research is indeed interesting (I’m very surprised how many posts mentioning Linux you found), I’d be curious to see a breakdown of developer vs. non-developer posts. WMy impression is that posts for real developers, as opposed to maintainers/admins/etc., are the rare exception, not the rule, in most geographical areas (and that’s understandable, I think).
I’d also be interested in a breakdown of how many posts mention vendor specific experience as opposed to more or less general technology skills (of the sort you’ve tried to identify, generally). I’m amazed (and dismayed) at the extent to which employers can name specific products for which they apparently need help, without any mention whatsoever of the skills that might be needed.
Have you given thought to building a database and making it generally available? I’m imagining that lots of correlations and other views of the data are possible, and making the data available would allow others to do that; you probably wouldn’t think of every interesting analysis yourself, after all.
But this is, again, an interesting start. Thanks 8^)
Another quick thought regarding IBM’s embrace of Linux.
I’ve never used AIX, so I can’t comment on it directly, but I know I’ve personally contributed capability to a Linux project that has never been in AIX (IPC facilities for STREAMS). I don’t see it mentioned much how much more the open source community can achieve than can a single company, even IBM or Microsoft. IBM, I think, knows that it can’t compete in software, and likely doesn’t want to do so (it never seemed all that interested in software innovation even in the old days). It’s not even hardware that it really wants to sell; it wants to sell services. That’s also been true since the early days, and it true for other companies (like telecom providers) as well. Don’t cellphone companies practically give away phones (I don’t have one personally) to get customers to pay them on a monthly basis?
It works to the advantage of companies like IBM and Sun to put free software on their hardware and sell support for the combination. Among other things, it puts pressure on those companies (like Microsoft) whose sole business is selling software, and in the long term, software sales must be a losing proposition.
The point is, as I’m sure you’re aware, the question of what companies have to do to stay in business is not a simple one.
That is reflected in how companies hire. I think that now, because so much open source software is available for free, there aren’t going to be many job openings for original developers of proprietary software products. Thus, most posts will be for service-oriented positions instead, and developers are simply overqualified for most such positions.
That’s why it would be interesting, in my view, to try to break down by developer vs. non-developer. I realize it may be hard to do. But I would finally note that use of a programming language or facility with an OS don’t make this distinction. Scripting languages especially apply to both, but I’ve been around long enough to know that even hardcore C and assembly programming can be maintenance work predominantly.
I hope after all that Slashdot traffic you got some job offers
Regarding the various comments on GNU/Linux on other big iron platforms, indeed most are correct is saying that although the there are some core app platforms such as Oracle which are available on GNU/Linux on other platoforms than x86 32bit and now x86 64bit ( AMD Opteron ), it seems that there are a growing number of folk, myself and indeed my brother, who run GNU/Linux on platforms other than x86.
I for one am not a fan of x86 and run a range of GNU/Linux systems on PPC and other hardware platforms.
My brother Ed Blanchfield has infact blog’ed his efforts in running up Gentoo/Linux on some big iron I’ve loaned him, in the form of a Dual Proc Sun Microsystems SunFire E420R and a truck load of RAID stoage.
You can check out his efforts ( still to be completely detailed though ) over at:
http://www.e-things.org/
there’s a link to his Blog there. (check out his PI to the sound of MIDI as well while you’re there - it’s quite something !!)
What you’ll find if you do have the opportunity to run up the likes of either a GNU/Linux distro, or even one of the BSD’s, on heavy iron like Sun’s SPARC hardware, is that unlike the PC legacy performance issues of x86 platforms, you will be amazed by the performance difference of something like an E420R when you throw some serious load at the thing, throughput is the key here, forget about piddly little 500 of 800 Mhz FSB’s, try gigabit backplanes - crossbar at that, now you’re talking my language.
Databases for example, MySql or PostgreSQL, simply “fly” on hardware that’s designed from ground up to “pump data”, rather than hardware that’s been more and more tightly wound over the years to the point where under load you feel like it’s about to fly apart.
I’d put my money on even an old chunk of SPARC hardware over current x86 platforms
Sorry that this was way off thread but really had to get that off my chest
Cheers,
Dez
—
Dez Blanchfield
http://CradleTechnologies.COM
http://WebSearch.COM.AU
http://Mosman.no-ip.com/blog/
i’m currently in service support for linux and solaris servers, working in such a pressurised enviornment can be very stressfull, and i’m in a dilema now to shift to a development job ,and in there what do i opt ? .NET or java … can u please suggest me ?
Continuing the Discussion